The REV Relay... & Other General 'lectrical System Info.

[Dix]

More than you ever WANTED to know about the relays & electrical system of a REV sled

Do a search overr on DOOtalk and you'll find a bzillion threads about the relays on SDI (and non-SDI) sleds (and the issues related to 'em)... Here's a "one post catch all" that hits the majority of the highlights... and dispells most of the myths.

Sure... this is one LONG-*SSED post... but I'll guarantee that if you read it & have sense enough to digest it, you'll be able to trouble-shoot & figure out near any relay-related electrical issue (and some non-relay related ones) that may crop-up on your sled.

I suppose question #1 on everyone's lips is..... WHAT RELAY WORKS THAT DOESN'T COST $30 AT MY DEALER?!?!?!

The simple answer... just about any one that'll fit in the socket & works without issues in your sled when you're riding it.

Really... it IS just that simple... if you spend the 3 or 4 hours reading all the threads on the issue you'll uncover discussions of some relays being "better" than others (true, to a certain extent), making sure there is a "diode" or "resistor" in the relay used in SDIs (not true), and the minimum current capacity ("sort of" true, but not a deal breaking critical issue in our application... most of the time).

There are guys that have sought-out "certain" relays like BOSCH for example... and had great success with them... and others that have gone to the local PEP Boys, VIP Auto, or other local area discount auto parts store... walked over to the section where they sell fog lights, switches, and other electrical accessories... grabbed one off the shelf... matched it up with the bad one they brought with 'em... plugged it in and gone sledding... and still have the same relay in it to this day... no issues... heck, I'd be willing to bet the auto parts section of Wal-Mart even has 'em.

And those will be cheap Chinese 20-amp (probably) relays.

OK, I know... not the answer you were hoping for... but I wanted to dismiss a lot of the high current/certain brand/certain type/magical mystery contents cube/etc technical mumbo-jumbo as to what does and doesn't work... you know... dispense with the "myths".


Myth #1... You need a relay rated for 40-amps or more.

I've had one of those el-cheapo "American components... Russian components.... ALL MADE IN TAIWAN!!!!!" type (sorry couldn't resist... lame "Armageddon" reference) 20A relays zip-tied up under my sled since back in December.. grabbed it off the rack at PEP Boys.

Ok, sure... the specs on the stock Doo relay are 40 Amp... and if you want to trace the circuits and do the math...

E-Start Non-SDI relay feeds 1 30-amp fuse and 1 5-amp.

Manual-Start non-SDI & SDI "Load" Relay feeds 2 20-amp fuses.

SDI "Run" Relay feeds 4 5-amp fuses and 1 10-amp.

On the surface that means we have a theoretical maximum of 35, 40, & 30 amps respectively... but...

If you've ever designed electrical circuits you have to "overfuse" it, so to speak. A 30-amp fuse that has a constant 29.9 amps of current going through it isn't going to last very long... so most are calculated for a constant load of 50-75% of the fuse rating and rounded up, depending on application.

Take your headlights for example... which are run through one of the 20A fuses... let's do "worst case"... we'll figure your voltage regulator is getting a little "hot" & is putting out 14 volts when you've got her wound up... even if you've put 2 100-watt high beams (which are right around 1.5-ohms) that's still only around 18-1/2 amps of current.... just over 10 amps for the stock 60-watters @ 13.5 volts is more realistic... toss in a 1/4-amp for the high-beam indicator (and that's probably overkill) and you barely crack 10-1/2 amps... on a 20-amp fuse.

(Note: at speed the charging system in your sled is somewhere between 12.75-13.5 volts normally)

Still... if you're the skittish type and want to be safe, or if you have installed higher wattage headlights... on a Manual-Start non-SDI, or for the SDI "Load" relay, you can ask (or check) if what you're getting is rated for at least 30-Amps... but, given the reality of the circuitry currents I don't think it's a deal breaker... you'd have to ride around all the time with the (stock)high-beams on, grips & thumb-warmer on high, with a heated visor and some other accessory (like a GPS) plugged in, AND be dragging the brake all the time to get up to 20 amps consistently.

Still not convinced?... OK... how about this... What's the maximum output, in amps, of a 360-watt Doo magneto?

Do the math and get back to me... here's some help if you don't know "Ohm's Law"... http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...en/ohmslaw.htm

(Yes, I know you SDI owners have a 480-watt mag... & you also have TWO relays to feed... not just one)



Myth #2... You need a relay with a diode/resistor/magical mystery component inside.

Take a bad stock Doo relay apart and you won't find anything but a relay... which is basically just an electro-magnetic switch... there's no diode and/or resistor and/or anything else to control any voltage spike/lightning strike/Act of God in there... it's just a dumb on/off switch.. that's all... even in the SDIs.


and finally... Myth #3... You should never "tap/rap" on a relay to test it.

Well... if you're talking about the average relay found inside any of the handy-dandy electronics toys you have around the house and available at your local Radio Shack that's true.... but we're talking about relays that are supposed to be made to survive in an automotive application.

Now, if you bash it with a hammer it's not likely to work anymore... but if it can't survive me tapping on it with a screwdriver handle (or maintain contact connection... ala the mystery SDI "cutout" issue) it's not likely to survive in the sled much longer anyway... and could very likely be the reason it cuts out when I bash a mogul... or hit that certain vibration frequency & magnitude at 7500RPM on a hard pull.

Here's a quote from Panasonic's literature on their High Power Automotive Relays

- High Shock Resistance for Drop Test Requirements (2 Meters - 6.6 Feet)

And this from the datasheet...

SHOCK RESISTANCE - Destructive - Min 1000m/s[sup]2[/sup] (100G)

... I say it should be able to pass the "tap test" easily.


OTHER RELAY FAQs & GENERAL INFO/TROUBLESHOOTING:


Q: Why do they seem to fail more in sleds than cars?

Well, think about that for a second... IMO we're subjecting these things to a FAR harsher environment in a sled than they were envisioned for when they were designed for your average car/truck.

Just the frequency and magnitude of vibration alone is FAR over and above what it would ever see in the normal automotive world... sure, Doo COULD spec out a much tougher relay just for sleds & have 'em made... but, supply and demand weighs in... what do you think THAT relay would cost? Heck, we have enough cheapos around here that cry about having to spend a few cents more per gallon for premium fuel for a P-Tek... or a few bucks more per gallon for syn-blend oil for an SDI... never mind a $75(or more, likely) relay.

IMO it's as simple as the fact that we're shaking these things to death.

Now, are SOME relays going to last longer than others.... YES, absolutely... you DO get what you pay for in some cases... question is... what do you want and/or need for how you ride.

If a relay cutting out is going to cost you a race or leave you stuck on a steep mountainside in waist deep powder... I'd definitely shoot for something a little better quality than what you can get for 3-5 bucks at your local discount auto store. (Bosch & NAPA seem to be the top contenders there.... Ford also has one that works & the "Standard Motor Products" brand found in many GM vehicles isn't a bad choice either)

But if the only thing it means is that you have to get the spare out of the trunk on the trail somewhere and swapping one out on the trail doesn't bother you... grab the cheap ones if you want... they do work... the choice is yours.



(cont. next post)

[Dix]

"My sled runs but 'X' doesn't work"... or "my SDI sled doesn't run/doesn't start/cuts out/etc."

Reading a wiring diagram isn't REALLY all that hard... even if you're not a technician... as long as you have an ounce of common sense, have 2 or more active brain-cells to rub together, and understand why you can't connect the positive and negative terminals of a battery directly together, you can follow one enough to figure out 90% of the electrical issues you'll ever run into... and most shop manual CDs (which include a wiring diagram) can be had on eBay for 10 bucks... it's where I got mine.

However...

There are 3 different basic types of wiring systems used by Doo from 2003 to 2007... and one other just has an "extra" circuit.

- Non-SDI Electric Start
- Non-SDI Manual Start
- SDI (Manual Start SDIs have an extra circuit)

Here's where SOME of the confusion about what happens when a relay goes bad comes in... the symptoms are different for each of the 3 types... well... especially for the E-start non-SDI.

When the relay in a non-SDI Electric Start sled goes bad the most noticeable thing that happens is the battery will no longer be charged.... now you may not think that's too big of a deal... except that the circuit that feeds the ECM (via the 5A fuse) is also fed through the relay.

If the battery in your E-Start non-SDI is getting weaker & weaker, and the 30A fuse down by the battery is good... your relay just went south... if you don't have a spare, you might want to think about manually starting the sled until you can replace it... once the battery goes flat you'll be done... the ECM will be running off the battery and not the charging system.

In the manual start non-SDI versions the relay feeds both of the 20A fuses... one fuse is your headlights and the other is your gauges, grips, tail-lights, & etc.... so if the sled runs, but none of the above work... well.... you get the idea.

And that can of worms known as SDI...

You get two relays if you have an E-start model.... R1 (Run) & R2 (Load)

R2 - the "Load" relay works the same stuff as the relay in the manual start non-SDI sleds... feeds 2 20A fuses (F7 & F8 ) with all the same circuitry.

R1 - The "Run" relay... the "bad apple"... the bane of the SDIs existence for many SDI owners... here's the criminal that has driven you nuts, & single-handedly been responsible for more "relay posts" than any other... feeds all the 5 & 10 amp fuses in the box for... well... pretty much everything that makes the sled run... Like the fuel pump, injector power, & ECM for example... and replacing it has "magically cured" a LOT of SDI owner's issues.

The quickest and easiest way to find out of you have a "run" relay that's acting up is to swap it with the load relay... if your running issues are now cured it might have been the problem... try swapping them back & see if the problem returns.

OH D*MN... I just let the cat out of the bag.. oh well... if you've yet to figure it out... here it is... the best kept secret in electronics... one often overlooked and sometimes simple/sometimes aggravating cure for intermittent electrical/electronic issues.... unplug everything and then plug it all back together.

You'd be amazed at the number of times I've had that exact method work. plug-in connections can oxidize over time... that can (and often will) drive you insane trying to diagnose, and is a lot more common than you might think.

Case in point... my other half's GSX...

We're talking about a 2-year-old (at that point) sled that only had 900 miles on it... how much "sitting" had it done over those 2 years.... a lot obviously.

So we get it home and discover an odd problem... if the sled was just sitting at idle it would occasionally die. No apparent rhyme or reason... no other time, only at idle... and only once in a while.

So, having my suspicions I simply, one at a time, pulled every fuse & relay out of the box and put them all back.... magically... problem cured to this day.

Had that not worked next step would have been all connectors for the ECM, injectors, sensors, and any other electrical connector I could have found under the plastic in the harness.

Step #1 of ANY electrical diagnosis.... are your connections good?

It still amazes me to this day how many skip that step... even those who should know better... catch myself at it sometimes.

Just because it "looks" OK... doesn't mean it is... unless you are Superman & have x-ray vision.

Finally... a couple "special cases" of note...

Manual Start SDI - you have a 3rd relay (R4) the "Start" relay... the small battery on these is only 3 Amps... so the capacitor (in theory) will get the sled up and running even if the battery gets real weak... or to quote the service manual...

The capacitor has two functions. It is used to stabilize battery voltage when voltage from the voltage
regulator/rectifier is charging the small battery. It also gives the possibility to be able to start
the engine even if the battery is very low. In this case, starting the engine may be more difficult and
will require the very complete stroke of the starting rope.

The capacitor relay prevents the capacitor to be connected to the battery when the engine is not running to allow safe vehicle maintenance (disconnection and reconnection of the capacitor).

Nice in theory... ever tried to start one with a weak battery?... may be more difficult???... no kidding???.... really????

E-RAVE Equipped Sleds - The manual start P-Tek's E-RAVE Solenoid is powered through the relay (and accessory fuse)... realize that if you've lost the relay (or fuse) and are just "trying to get it home"... keeping your RPMs down below the E-RAVE opening point could prove prudent (E-Start P-Teks are not effected by the relay - but if you lose the accessory fuse you do have the same result). SDIs aren't so "cut & dry"... the solenoid itself is powered via the "Run" relay (if that's out you have bigger issues to worry about than just E-RAVE control)... but the heating element in the solenoid that keeps it warm & working properly is powered through the "Load" relay... so again... keep that in mind as the RPMs get up over 7K with a non-functional Load relay.

Why are they wired through different relays??? Good question - could be a couple reasons really... or no real reason... & only BRP's eggheads know for sure.... maybe.


OK... I know... go ahead and hate me.. I saved this part for last... but here's a list of a "few" relays that aren't likely to cost 30 bucks... pick your poison...

(NOTE: Some of these relays will only have 4 terminals instead of 5... no problem, they will work just fine the center connection of the 5 terminal relay is never used anyway... keep that in mind if you're grabbing one of those cheap "off the shelf" type "fog light/accessory" relays... if it only has 4 terminals but looks like it'll still plug into the connector... it'll work)

PANASONIC CB1-12V (5 term) & CB1a-12V (4 term)

It really doesn't matter if the relay does or doesn't have a "mount tab"... you can cut the tab off if you have to put one in an SDI that has the tab... and if you have to use one in a non-SDI that doesn't have the mount tab for the zip-tie it's not that big a deal... friend of mine has had one duct taped to the original bad one in his sled for a couple years.

If you want the easy way out... go into your local auto parts store and have them do a cross reference for whatever brand they sell that swaps with the Standard Motor Products part numbers listed below... if they can't do that... find another auto parts dealer that isn't quite so stupid.

Standard Motor Products (STD): RY115 - w/ mount tab
                               RY116 - no mount tab


PANASONIC: CB1-12V    - 40A - 5 terminal - no bracket
           CB1a-12V   - 40A - 4 terminal - no bracket
           CB1-M-12V  - 40A - 5 terminal - bracket mount
           CB1a-M-12V - 40A - 4 terminal - bracket mount


BOSCH:
0 332 019 103 - 50 amp  - 4 terminal - no bracket    - Suppression: R
0 332 019 110 - 50 amp  - 4 terminal - bracket mount - Suppression: R
0 332 209 137 - 50 amp  - 5 terminal - no bracket    - Suppression: R
0 332 209 138 - 50 amp  - 5 terminal - bracket mount - Suppression: R

0 332 019 150 - 40 amp  - 5 terminal - bracket mount
0 332 019 151 - 40 amp  - 5 terminal - no bracket
0 332 019 155 - 40 amp  - 5 terminal - bracket mount - Suppression: D
0 332 209 150 - 40 amp  - 5 terminal - bracket mount
0 332 209 151 - 40 amp  - 5 terminal - no bracket
0 332 209 159 - 40 amp  - 5 terminal - no bracket    - Suppression: R
0 332 209 161 - 40 amp  - 5 terminal - bracket mount - Suppression: R

0 332 209 168 - 30 amp  - 5 terminal - no bracket


FORD PART#: FOAZ-14N089-A (F0AB-14B192-AA printed on it)


NAPA Echlin: AR143 has the mount tab
             AR204 has the mount tab & Suppression Resistor
             AR201 has no mount tab


RADIO SHACK: 40 Amp - 275-001
             30 Amp - 275-226

[Tynan19]

Dude, thanks for sharing that. Steve, did you buy a relay yet?

[MaineSled]

You do realize Dix your just committing yourself to getting kidnapped when I decide/find the rider forward DOO I am going to buy for 08/09 snowmobile season. The more I read what you post the more it seems like you might actually know something-lol- In the mean time when we going to get together and go ATVing? I just went through everything on the Polaris 500 magnum I bought and am ready to ride!

[Tynan19]

So who has an extra quad?

[MaineSled]

I keep an extra one kicking around for company its nothing fancy, it is a pretty mint FourTrax250 thats 2 wheel drive but thats no biggie because my other one is 4 wheel drive and I keep a tow rope&winch on it. Funny thing is the 2 wheel will go just about anywhere the 4 will except when it come to thick mud & best thing is - your hard pressed to burn a whole tank of gas in a day with it. Why when you want to go?

[Tynan19]

Sometime? Not sure yet.

[raygun]

Dix,
Just read this great post on Rev electrical relays...

I have an issue that I have not heard anyone else having, maybe you might be able to point me in the right direction...

I have a 2004 Skidoo Rev 600 ho (NON-SDI) elect start...I purchased this machine second hand and have had this issue since I bought it (original owner was at a loss as to the cure as well...)

Symptoms:
Initially I can start the machine with electric start but when I shut down the the engine (either by hitting the kill switch/ pulling the DESS lanyard/ or stalling out) the headlights remain on (even with the DESS lanyard removed) and the electric start will not fire again BUT I can start the engine with the manual pull start. I have to open the right side panel to remove the 30amp fuse on top of the battery to turn off my lights (if we are stopping for a while so I don't kill the battery) this seems to reset the system to be able to use the electric start again...

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Cheers,
Raygun

[Dix]

http://www.dootalk.com/forums/index....owtopic=312240

[BHShaman]

Thanks.
Picked up a RY116 today.

Better safe than sorry.